Watching in Action
An Interview with Archie Macpherson
In celebration of #BookWeekScotland and the run-up to his book launch, Archie Macpherson has taken the time out to answer some of our burning questions about his new book Touching the Heights. Read on as Archie takes us through his inspiration for the book and how each of the Scottish sporting greats has influenced his life.
This interview was conducted by our Sales and Marketing Assistant Stephanie Centola.
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Before we get started, I wondered if you could sum up the book in three words, and give a short summary?
‘Reminiscent. Great sport. Simply, identifying landmarks in a long career.’
Fantastic. I thought the prologue first of all was really interesting. You discussed Eric Liddell at the Olympic Games, in 1924, where his strict Christian beliefs prevented him from running in the heat on the Sunday. Resulting in Harold Abrahams winning the 100m distance instead. Do you feel like this was the nostalgic memory that tipped you off to write the book?”
‘Yes, I think so. First of all, it was an idea to do another book, looking back and filling in more detail of people that I had written about in a slight fashion. Suddenly, I remembered a particular occasion about Eric Liddell, because I’d met someone who was very close to him, Peter Wickham at the Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh, he was 71 at the time and I was sitting behind him at my desk in the BBC office before the game. And from there onwards, it was like a chain reaction. I thought about the people who had made an impact on me, during my career, and the pages filled themselves. They lined up and it was perfectly natural who had identified themselves, and enough for me to write about them. And that’s how everything started.’
Do you feel as though it was that moment that ignited a passion for writing/media/punditry?
‘Well at that time I was simply a broadcaster but looking back then I never had any inclination that I would write at any great extent, this was Edinburgh in the 70’s. Looking back, nostalgia was of course a motivating factor. And the thing about human beings, they like to share memories, and I wanted to share them in detail about particular individuals, some well-known and others not so well-known. But I think it merited me in that level of attention, sparked off by me.’
You touch on exclusive characters in Scottish sport that we’ll never probably see the likes of again. ‘Landmarks in history’, as you called it. There was a really poignant moment in the book where you discuss your link to Tommy Docherty being where you were both from. It’s the same later in the Jock Stein chapter. Do you feel as though this is where the affinity to be a good manager comes from? Is it the location, Glasgow's working-class background?
‘Absolutely. They were men who went through very hard times. Working for a living, and working hard for a living. Particularly if you’re a miner. Docherty had a variety of jobs. But he was a working-class boy, who realised that his ability may be to make a mark in life, and he was determined having been brought up in a pretty rough area of the city. He was conditioned to take on aggression as Stein was. This built an intense character. He was resilient. They both were. Persevering with adversity, being able to ride it out. All of this came from being moulded as kids, in working-class areas.’
Do you feel as though that is why you wanted to write the book? People from different generations see these people for more than just their accomplishments.
‘I think it was accidental that that happened. It was because I knew them. Dr Richard Budgett of course was from an entirely different background. He came from a very comfortable, middle-class area, and he made it into the book because he attracted me as he was the only Scottish Gold medalist from the Olympic Games in LA in 1984. I thought it would be an opportunity to look at the problems he faced when he became the medical director of the International Olympic Committee. He wasn’t there because of class; he was there because of achievement, and intelligence. He was different. What they all had in common, was that I watched them in action. The environment in which they made their achievements was an experience for me as well. That’s why they all qualified, more than anything else.’
In the chapter about Jackie Paterson you write, ‘You could get on in life in Glasgow if you were handy with your fists’, and the ‘overall energetic response of a Glasgow determined to liberate itself from the suffocating rigours of the World War just ended’. Do you think it was the culture that gave boxing credence in Glasgow streets?
‘Well boxing was giving people an opportunity to watch sport cheaply, easily within range of their own localities, because there were boxing venues around the city. And secondly, in a way it was a fight for survival. People were watching this realising the immediate effect of post-war rationing. I became poor myself, I was a boy then. Things were tough…You would go to a boxing match and see somebody getting to the top like Jackie Paterson or Benny Lynch. And anything was possible in life. Boxing represented another avenue or way from the begrudging of existence. They just loved the World Champions, and both of them were the World Champions. They boxed and they boxed well...’
Do you think it’s the reverence of these people, players and athletes that are so strong and prevalent in our minds when we think of them?
‘Yes, they are. Not only that but I don’t think people appreciate how much they mean to society. I feel as though it’s been a long battle to indicate to people how important sporting heroes are to our society. I’ve dealt with a culture in which people are rather superior looking down their noses at maybe a boxer, or even a runner or even a footballer. They were inspiring people on different levels. Different social levels. They were an inspiration for many. I think it’s that lack of appreciation which lies at the heart of my prologue.’
Sandra Whittacker overcoming adversity is strong in the book as well, especially her journey as a runner in what is considered a man’s sport. Do you feel as though potentially, Sandra Whittaker’s success was a turning point in time for women’s sport?
‘Maybe not Sandra personally herself. I’ve written about her for many reasons. She failed to qualify for one-hundredth of a second, to progress further. She wasn’t there for that reason. She was there because I saw in her, the possibility for women to do other things. To break away from the domesticity, the male culture…She represented that for me. As I watched her in action in LA, I took a lot of inspiration from the fact that a lot of athletic experts admired her for what she tried to achieve. Of course, her record lasted for over 30 years. Although she failed to qualify, she broke the Scottish record which should not be ignored…that was a long period to hold a record for the 200m. As I said in the book, as a male talking about sports, I only gave women’s sport two cheers out of three, and as a male, I was tolerant of it. It was dreadful of me, as it was a second or third thought. And so, to a certain extent, she achieved that/changed that.’
Do you think there’s an expectancy in the media for Scottish sports people to fall short? I feel as though there was prominence of this in chapters whereby there was either an expectancy to expect too much of our sportspeople or expect too little, there was never a balance in between.
Well I think for a long time, there was an inferiority complex based on what mattered, but there were breakthroughs such as Celtic winning in Lisbon in 1967… nobody really expected them to win that. And individual Scottish efforts. I think we felt we were on edge. What happened in 78, was different though. That was wild, expected burgeoning expectancy for Scotland to come back from Argentina with the cup. This is why…I wrote about Ally Macleod, it was wildly ambitious, totally unrealistic. But we all went with it; we all enjoyed it. We were all victims of mass hysteria.’
Just briefly on Ally Macleod, do you feel as though there was a danger of hysteria in the Scottish international game? I feel as though in the past few years, with the Euros etc, is this prominence of hysteria, with expectancy to expect too much?
‘Well, we’re desperate to do well of course. I’m not so worried about that. On one occasion when I watched Ally, people standing on tables cheering him and chanting him. He could turn out to be Icarus and your wings would melt, you know. And yet, I enjoyed it. We went with it. And I wouldn’t worry about anti-climaxes. We can survive anti-climaxes. So, I like the nervous expectancy of competition, particularly if it has a Scottish flag associated with it.”
Turning to Sir Alex Ferguson, do you feel as though, as you said, it was his ability to overcome the anti-climax, this being the foundation for him to project himself as a competent man manager? His ability to rise above, a lot of the time what goes on in the media and just really perform?
‘Well he was exceptional of course, exceptional with Aberdeen when he broke the Old Firm monopoly alongside Jim Maclean at United when they were titled the New Firm. He was exceptional and he took a lot from Stein, with the way he was able to stimulate courage and inspire his teams by talking about not being given a fair assessment that he really needed, In the West of Scotland, being a manager at Aberdeen, you’re not going to get anywhere. And that bred that inferiority complex with Aberdeen before he arrived. He eradicated it. He made them grow and so on. I had amazing times with Alex Ferguson before I fell out with him. Or before he fell out with me. And yes, he was exceptional. It came as no surprise that he went South and had even greater success there.’
Moving on to chapters 10 and 11 about Bill Maclaren and Jim Maclean, both men who pushed the boundaries of Scottish sport, in rugby and within Scottish football as Dundee United manager. Do you feel as though rugby was made more prominent with the commentary talents of Bill Maclaren?
‘We realised Scottish football was ingrained in our psyche. And it was always going to be difficult to communicate with many people, this strange sport. Aficionados of course would never consider it strange. Scrums, mauls, Bill interpreted that brilliantly. The quality of his voice I think, was very, very important. Bill showed that commentating wasn’t just about lucidity or interpretation, or analysis, but the quality of sound. That’s very, very important in commentating. The reason he’s in the book is he set a standard that’s always hung over me at the BBC. When you talk about commentating, you always mention Bill Maclaren first and foremost. So, to that extent, I suppose you could say he was a kind of competitor. People were always comparing two different commentaries, different sports and different games and so on. I really did admire him and I liked him. He was a gentleman. A former teacher like myself, so we actually had things in common. We really did have a lot in common, so he had to go in the book because he had a huge impact on me.’
Do you feel as though with that, rugby is still undervalued as a sport in the modern day?
’Well I’m not sure about that. It’s given prominence on television, in particular, we see a lot of rugby now because of the increased exposure through the years. People are a little bit au fait with it now, they begin to understand. Although I still don’t understand why some penalties are awarded. It’s a complicated game. They watched it and I watched it, even when I was commentating...As a boy, I used to travel through to Edinburgh with a friend of mine to watch internationals at Murrayfield. I did all of that. I think people are better versed in the intricacies now because it’s on television.’
When it comes to Jim Mclean, do you feel as though managers in Scottish football in modern times have the ability to outperform the Old Firm, or have they just lost their fire when competing? They know they can’t in terms of monetary prospects?
‘Money is much more significant than it used to be. It’s always been significant. There are bigger gulfs now, at certain levels of Scottish football, without any question. A bigger gulf in Scottish clubs, than in other parts of the world, particularly South of the border. But if you’re talking about Maclean, he was a visionary. An absolutely great man, unique man, unique individual. Totally devoted to football. He thought of nothing else but football. And when you talked to him, he was one of the most intelligent men, analysts of the game. The trouble with him is he was so dour, he sounded like a funeral undertaker at times. And that would kind of take the edge off what he would say about the game...The most important thing about him was that he wanted to win the Scottish league…winning the Scottish League is that domestic honour that still ranks for me as a great achievement. I interviewed him that day on the pitch, a memorable quote from him which I include in the book. He was different from any other manager, I’ve ever met…some of his players…used to say to me, ‘we play to actually annoy him’, ‘we feel like we want to shove something up his backside’ because he was so dominating and hard with them and so on. He was extraordinary.’
The final two chapters focus on two Scottish football giants Graeme Souness and Jock Stein. Do you feel as though these two men gave Scottish football identity?
‘They gave different identities. If we take Stein, he won a European trophy, he established Scotland on a European map. He won the League Championship nine times in a row. He changed the whole tenure of Scottish football; into segments we’d never achieved before. He was a tracksuit manager. All the managers I knew at the time, I think you’re a Hearts fan, is that right? The Hearts manager at that time was Tommy Walker, who dressed even on the pitch as though he was going to church…Stein was a tracksuit manager. He was bespattered in mud from the training ground. He was right into it. He held press conferences for the first time ever, no one had done that before…He employed tactics from the continent and encouraged his club Celtic, who had been drifting and going nowhere, famous though it was, into an opposing force in Europe…and decided football was too parochial, and started to buy stars. England were banned from European football because of the conduct from its supporters, he went South got English internationals, into Ibrox, unheard of in football. He broke down the parochial barriers, and spent money…And totally changed the game. His style, culture of football. He was criticized for spending money on foreign players, but Celtic under Martin O’Neill would be the second team to play a non-Scottish Celtic side. So, it caught on. And that’s why I said earlier on, money has now changed the game, in comparison from what it used to be. Souness was at the heart of that.’
Was that the joy for you when writing this book, remembering certain moments in time that had a profound impact on you as a person, not just within your career but as a person? There are so many small moments where you get to see what type of people they were, and what they were like in their day to day lives.
‘Yeah, I mean, I saw nearly all of these people on and off their environments. I got to know them as people, rather than participants in sport or managers and so on. Nostalgia was the main impulse for me, I love looking back. The luxury of the time that we had great events, and I felt like I had to go into more detail than I ever have before, and open the eyes to a reader what it was actually like to be close to these people and seeing them as human beings. And not just as names in a paper of faces on a television screen. And that’s what I’m trying to achieve by going into detail a lot more.’